[Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
Charles-H. Schulz
charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com
Mon Jun 25 17:41:58 CEST 2012
Le lundi 25 juin 2012 à 11:16 -0400, robert_weir at us.ibm.com a écrit :
> plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl wrote on 06/25/2012 09:41:13 AM:
>
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > It's not a matter of making it more obvious. It's a problem of list
> > hopping, for the lack of a better word. People who tend to be more
> or
> > less on the same lists start discussing one topic on one mailing
> list,
> > and end up on another one.
> >
>
> List hopping is fine. And I'd expect in most cases there to be some
> sort of internal or non-public discussion on the feasibility of
> hosting before a formal proposal is made. That is natural. But
> sometime between "discussing" and "announcing to the press", I'd hope
> there would be a "proposal" put to this list.
And that's where the cock-up lies from our side, as while it was being
discussed, our website team just copied and pasted one suggestion and
put it on the newly open conference website as if it had been formally
agreed on.
>
> > I summarized what has been discussed or how it has happened. It
> started
> > with Bart asking me to investigate the possibility of a plugfest in
> > Paris. My investigations for a local venue didn't turn well. I thus
> > proposed to have a plugfest in Berlin during the LibreOffice
> Conference
> > where we will have an ODF track. It was welcome, and we were about
> to
> > schedule a call on Thursday. Then there was this publishing mistake
> on
> > the LiboCon website. You seem to have landed at that point.
> >
> > Anything else?
> >
>
> I'm not so interested in how we got here as to what the actual
> proposal is, e.g., the host, dates, venue, registration, call for
> papers, etc.
Sure, everything is there: www.libocon.org
Charles.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
>
> > Charles.
> >
> > Le lundi 25 juin 2012 à 09:22 -0400, robert_weir at us.ibm.com a
> écrit :
> > > This is the plugfest organizers list. This is where we organize
> > > plugfests. If a different list name would make this more obvious,
> I'm
> > > open to suggestions.
> > >
> > > Since we cannot undo this error, can someone at least outline what
> was
> > > proposed and/or agreed upon? Most of us here are still in the
> dark
> > > and hearing this for the first time.
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > > plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl wrote on 06/24/2012 03:43:30
> PM:
> > >
> > > > From: "Charles-H. Schulz" <charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com>
> > > > To: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org,
> > > Dennis.hamilton at acm.org,
> > > > Date: 06/24/2012 03:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > > > Sent by: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> > > >
> > > > Dennis,
> > > >
> > > > I re-parsed my emails. Lots of people who are on this mailing
> list
> > > > were included in the first discussion; not all of them were. I
> now
> > > > realize the "first" discussion took place on an OpenForum
> Europe
> > > > mailing list (and I really don't know why it did, as it should
> not
> > > > take place there) but it should not be a reason to claim no one
> was
> > > > in the know. IBM people were on that list (the OFE one),
> Michiel
> > > > was, others were. You are not on this OFE mailing list, granted;
> but
> > > > for many of us this discussion started several two or three
> weeks
> > > > ago. I'm sorry if that seems to fall in your inbox abruptly.
> This
> > > > being said, I do reiterate that the comments made by some about
> the
> > > > so-called neutrality are unwelcome, uncalled for, and pathetic.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Charles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le 24 juin 2012 à 21:32, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > Charles,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am only on this Plugtest list. That is all I see.
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is fragmentation of where this happens and whatever
> > > > discussions there are, that is an unfortunate contribution to
> the
> > > > opportunity for misunderstanding and miscommunication that has
> > > arisen here.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have only seen what is discussed on this list, the one for
> > > > Plugtest organizing.
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: I have reduced the CC list on this reply because the list
> > > > robot is unhappy about excessive numbers of addressees and
> requires
> > > > moderation in that case. If that means CC to folks who are not
> > > > subscribers to this list will be lost, that is unfortunate.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Dennis
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Charles-H. Schulz
> [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:57
> > > > > To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > > > Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; 'Louis
> Suarez-Potts';
> > > > 'Alberto Barrionuevo'; 'Michiel Leenaars'; 'Arthur Buijs';
> 'Sophie
> > > > Gautier'; 'Olivier Hallot'; 'Italo Vignoli'; 'Donald Harbison'
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dennis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you on all the Plugfest lists that I am subscribed? I
> would
> > > > not see why you wouldn't. I specifically was invited to
> organize a
> > > > plugfest in Paris by Bart (I'm sure that would have raised some
> > > > eyebrows as well), but did not get any answer from potential
> venues.
> > > > Then I made the *proposal* that the LibreOffice Conference host
> the
> > > > plugfest in Berlin. So yes, there was a proposal. It was
> discussed,
> > > > it seemed welcome, but of course nothing was finalized (hence
> the
> > > > rub with the conference website and the press article) and we
> were/
> > > > are supposed to have a conference call about it this week, for
> which
> > > > I was supposed to invite the plugfest organization committee
> and
> > > > schedule the call. Now I don't know whether that would still
> fly, it
> > > > seems that we have to wait for IBM to grace us with its stamp
> of
> > > > approval or its collar of shame. As things stand here, I'm
> still
> > > > waiting for this answer; not that we wait for IBM's
> authorization
> > > > for anything, but obviously, we're not going to organize a
> plugfest
> > > > if there were no plans by the OpenDoc Society to have one in
> the
> > > > first place. Again, it's a pity that the same rotten apples
> block
> > > > and question everything that TDF does or does not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Charles.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le 24 juin 2012 à 20:23, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > > > >
> > > > >> Charles,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> First, congratulations on your marriage. The wedding
> photograph
> > > > is wonderful.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think the breakdown here has to do with the fact that no
> > > > proposal was made to Plugtest organizers and, as far as I can
> tell,
> > > > to the OpenDocument Society. In contrast, the offer from
> Microsoft
> > > > was made to this list. It was discussed, eventually accepted,
> and
> > > > then there was follow-up here, as well as conference calls for
> > > > organization, etc. Development of other Plugtests, including
> the
> > > > concurrent one at Orvieto, had similar visibility.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> That level of communication was missing in this instance.
> This
> > > > happens when such is the case.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> - Dennis
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PS: I have not seen anything about the press here. The only
> > > > indication that has been reported on this list is the LO 2012
> > > > Conference announcement and CFP itself.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Charles-H. Schulz
> [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:06
> > > > >> To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > > >> Cc: Louis Suarez-Potts; Alberto Barrionuevo; Michiel
> Leenaars;
> > > > plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; Arthur Buijs; Sophie
> > > > Gautier; Olivier Hallot; Italo Vignoli; Donald Harbison
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hello ,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think there must have been a miscommunication from our side
> and
> > > > from the press. The way I can describe it is that the idea of
> > > > hosting an ODF Plugfest was discussed a bit on the LibreOffice
> > > > marketing list and as our website team had to open up the
> conference
> > > > website for the LibreOffice Conference, they simply copied and
> > > > pasted the content of what was discussed on the marketing list
> and
> > > > put it on the beta website. From that point on, the press (the
> H)
> > > > wrote an article based on it. I will see that the mention of an
> ODF
> > > > Plugfest gets deleted, since that seems to be interpreted as a
> grave
> > > > casus belli by some.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As for the neutrality... did we organize a plugfest with
> > > > Microsoft and at Microsoft HQ in Brussels? Because if now some
> here
> > > > are complaining that it is a shame that TDF hosts one, then you
> guys
> > > > are really losing it by any measurement. I'm appalled that such
> > > > comments could be made. Yes, we're supposed to be an united
> front.
> > > > But it seems that some in this committee will not let one good
> deed
> > > > go unpunished. I am frankly becoming sick and tired of this.
> There's
> > > > no neutrality here; there are multiple implementations of ODF,
> and
> > > > I'm sure we agree that it's a good thing, don't we? So the
> > > > neutrality argument is weird. It seems to always go one way
> (TDF
> > > > should NOT be allowed to organize such events), and it's always
> > > > raised by the same people.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's my proposal: how about you guys figure the best course
> of
> > > > action in between your bruised egos, your hatred feelings and
> your
> > > > secret agendas and come back to me some time this week?
> > > > >> TDF will then devise what to do with the proposal we made.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Charles.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Le 24 juin 2012 à 19:40, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> At the same time, it is undesirable to conflict with
> conferences
> > > > where many of the developers will be attending with respect to
> their
> > > > own products, participating in conference development, etc. It
> now
> > > > looks like this:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 2012-10-16/19 Berlin, LibreOffice 2012 Conference
> > > > >>> 2012-10-18/19 Santiago de Compostela, Spain, LSWC 12
> > > > >>> 2012-11-05/09 Sinsheim, Germany, ApacheCon 2012 Europe
> (Apache
> > > > OpenOffice track in planning)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I assume other conflicts will come to light, even limiting
> to
> > > > those with an open-source focus.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> - Dennis
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>> From: Louis Suárez-Potts [mailto:luispo at gmail.com]
> > > > >>> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:05
> > > > >>> To: Alberto Barrionuevo
> > > > >>> Cc: Hanssens Bart; Arthur Buijs; Michiel Leenaars;
> > > > robert_weir at us.ibm.com; dennis.hamilton at acm.org; charles-
> > > > h.schulz at arsaperta.com; plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > > Berlin?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> All,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On 2012-06-24, at 08:46 , Alberto Barrionuevo wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Hi all,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> when are you planning to hold it?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Depending on dates, this could be another possibility:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> http://www.libresoftwareworldconference.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Surely it is more neutral than an OOOconf, and there is
> space
> > > > for many parallel events in it. The venue is one of the biggest
> ones
> > > > in Spain, so no problems because rooms. Also, it is near to the
> > > > north of Portugal.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> This third edition of the event is organized by our
> Spanish
> > > > association of open source and open standards companies, and
> usually
> > > > we include other events in it. Of course, it would be open to
> some
> > > > of you as speakers in the general conference.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I would strongly suggest we do not link this or any future
> ODF
> > > > plugfest to any OO (or implementation-specific) event,
> including
> > > > AOOi, LibreOffice or whatever.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We have something valuable, in addition to the standard. We
> have
> > > > independence and impartiality. That's why I would agree with
> > > > Alberto that an event that is not by any stretch linked to any
> > > > specific implementation of ODF be seriously considered. The
> event is
> > > > also as Alberto describes it: Big, important, and in an area
> that
> > > > will, in all likelihood, be shockingly pertinent.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Best,
> > > > >>>> //Alberto.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> best
> > > > >>> Louis
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> El 23/06/12 12:17, Hanssens Bart escribió:
> > > > >>>>> Hi,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I was talking to Charles about having a plugfest in Paris
> or
> > > > Portugal, he suggested Berlin might be interesting, which is
> fine
> > > with me,
> > > > >>>>> on the condition that it would be like the ODF Plugfest /
> > > > OpenOffice conference in Orvieto: that is, one location, two
> > > > _separate_ events.
> > > > >>>>> (and I do stress "separate" here)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> So, the idea was _not_ to send our press releases or issue
> a
> > > > CFP under the LO umbrella...
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Now, a conference call was to be scheduled next week, and
> > > > Charles kindly offered to provide the teleconf services.
> > > > >>>>> However, we haven't received the conf call meeting request
> yet
> > > > (but since Charles is getting married, he might have forgotten
> to
> > > send it)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Bart
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl [plugtest-
> > > > organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf Of Arthur Buijs
> > > [arthur at artietee.nl]
> > > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:28 AM
> > > > >>>>> To: Michiel Leenaars; robert_weir at us.ibm.com; 'Louis
> Suárez-
> > > > Potts'; dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > > >>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > > Berlin?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Hello,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> as far as I know we are not planning an ODF Plugfest in
> > > Berlin.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> --
> > > > >>>>> Regards/groeten,
> > > > >>>>> Arthur Buijs
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> -----Original message-----
> > > > >>>>> To: 'Louis Suárez-Potts'<luispo at gmail.com>;
> > > robert_weir at us.ibm.com;
> > > > >>>>> CC: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org;
> > > > >>>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton<dennis.hamilton at acm.org>
> > > > >>>>> Sent: Fri 22-06-2012 20:27
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another
> Plugfest
> > > in Berlin?
> > > > >>>>>> I assume that there is no visibility because there had
> been
> > > no public
> > > > >>>>>> discussion.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> The OpenDocumentSociety site and wiki have nothing about
> a
> > > > Plugfest being
> > > > >>>>>> developed since the April 2012 Brussels one.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> There has been co-location with an OpenOffice.org
> conference
> > > > in the past but
> > > > >>>>>> that was at the request of plugfest planners, not vice
> versa,
> > > > as I recall.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> The LibreOffice2012 announcement contains an ODF
> Plugfest
> > > > link, but it is to an
> > > > >>>>>> odfplugfest.de domain that was used for the last one in
> > > > Berlin. The Call for
> > > > >>>>>> papers does indeed include an ODF Plugfest as a
> > > topic/theme/track area.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I suppose this is one of those, "say it is so that it
> will
> > > > become so" actions.
> > > > >>>>>> (The form I recently heard this disputed was in "saying
> your
> > > > [whatever] is
> > > > >>>>>> secure does not make it secure" [;<).
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> - Dennis
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>>> [mailto:plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf
> Of
> > > > Louis Suárez-Potts
> > > > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:50
> > > > >>>>>> To: robert_weir at us.ibm.com
> > > > >>>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > > Berlin?
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Hm. Bit of a surprise to me, too. We had discussed on the
> OIC
> > > call
> > > > >>>>>> last Wednesday week the idea of a time frame and possibly
> > > location
> > > > >>>>>> (Europe) but that was it; I had suggested it better we
> stick
> > > with
> > > > >>>>>> really neutral spaces for the plugfest.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Louis
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On 22 June 2012 13:34,<robert_weir at us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>> I'm surprised that I'm reading this in the press when no
> > > discussion or
> > > > >>>>>>> proposal has been made on this list, but there appears
> to be
> > > > another ODF
> > > > >>>>>>> Plugfest in Berlin scheduled for November:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-
> > > > Conference-2012-Call-for-Pape
> > > > >>>>>> rs-announced-1623270.html
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Or did I miss something?
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> -Rob
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>>>>
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>>>
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>>>
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Alberto Barrionuevo, Director
> > > > >>>> Grupo OPENTIA
> > > > >>>> (+34) 918 38 38 58 [t]
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> OPENTIA
> > > > >>>> Ingeniería Informática en Abierto
> > > > >>>> www.opentia.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > >>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > >>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Charles-H. Schulz
> > > > >> Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > > >> Ars Aperta
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Charles-H. Schulz
> > > > > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > > > Ars Aperta
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >
> > > > Charles-H. Schulz
> > > > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > > Ars Aperta
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> >
> >
> > --
> > Charles-H. Schulz
> > Associé / Partner,
> > Ars Aperta.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> >
> _______________________________________________
> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
--
Charles-H. Schulz
Associé / Partner,
Ars Aperta.
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