[Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
robert_weir at us.ibm.com
robert_weir at us.ibm.com
Mon Jun 25 17:16:57 CEST 2012
plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl wrote on 06/25/2012 09:41:13 AM:
>
> Rob,
>
> It's not a matter of making it more obvious. It's a problem of list
> hopping, for the lack of a better word. People who tend to be more or
> less on the same lists start discussing one topic on one mailing list,
> and end up on another one.
>
List hopping is fine. And I'd expect in most cases there to be some sort
of internal or non-public discussion on the feasibility of hosting before
a formal proposal is made. That is natural. But sometime between
"discussing" and "announcing to the press", I'd hope there would be a
"proposal" put to this list.
> I summarized what has been discussed or how it has happened. It started
> with Bart asking me to investigate the possibility of a plugfest in
> Paris. My investigations for a local venue didn't turn well. I thus
> proposed to have a plugfest in Berlin during the LibreOffice Conference
> where we will have an ODF track. It was welcome, and we were about to
> schedule a call on Thursday. Then there was this publishing mistake on
> the LiboCon website. You seem to have landed at that point.
>
> Anything else?
>
I'm not so interested in how we got here as to what the actual proposal
is, e.g., the host, dates, venue, registration, call for papers, etc.
Regards,
-Rob
> Charles.
>
> Le lundi 25 juin 2012 à 09:22 -0400, robert_weir at us.ibm.com a écrit :
> > This is the plugfest organizers list. This is where we organize
> > plugfests. If a different list name would make this more obvious, I'm
> > open to suggestions.
> >
> > Since we cannot undo this error, can someone at least outline what was
> > proposed and/or agreed upon? Most of us here are still in the dark
> > and hearing this for the first time.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> > plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl wrote on 06/24/2012 03:43:30 PM:
> >
> > > From: "Charles-H. Schulz" <charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com>
> > > To: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org,
> > Dennis.hamilton at acm.org,
> > > Date: 06/24/2012 03:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > > Sent by: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> > >
> > > Dennis,
> > >
> > > I re-parsed my emails. Lots of people who are on this mailing list
> > > were included in the first discussion; not all of them were. I now
> > > realize the "first" discussion took place on an OpenForum Europe
> > > mailing list (and I really don't know why it did, as it should not
> > > take place there) but it should not be a reason to claim no one was
> > > in the know. IBM people were on that list (the OFE one), Michiel
> > > was, others were. You are not on this OFE mailing list, granted; but
> > > for many of us this discussion started several two or three weeks
> > > ago. I'm sorry if that seems to fall in your inbox abruptly. This
> > > being said, I do reiterate that the comments made by some about the
> > > so-called neutrality are unwelcome, uncalled for, and pathetic.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Charles.
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 24 juin 2012 à 21:32, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > >
> > > > Charles,
> > > >
> > > > I am only on this Plugtest list. That is all I see.
> > > >
> > > > If there is fragmentation of where this happens and whatever
> > > discussions there are, that is an unfortunate contribution to the
> > > opportunity for misunderstanding and miscommunication that has
> > arisen here.
> > > >
> > > > I have only seen what is discussed on this list, the one for
> > > Plugtest organizing.
> > > >
> > > > PS: I have reduced the CC list on this reply because the list
> > > robot is unhappy about excessive numbers of addressees and requires
> > > moderation in that case. If that means CC to folks who are not
> > > subscribers to this list will be lost, that is unfortunate.
> > > >
> > > > - Dennis
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Charles-H. Schulz [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:57
> > > > To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > > Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; 'Louis Suarez-Potts';
> > > 'Alberto Barrionuevo'; 'Michiel Leenaars'; 'Arthur Buijs'; 'Sophie
> > > Gautier'; 'Olivier Hallot'; 'Italo Vignoli'; 'Donald Harbison'
> > > > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > > >
> > > > Dennis,
> > > >
> > > > Are you on all the Plugfest lists that I am subscribed? I would
> > > not see why you wouldn't. I specifically was invited to organize a
> > > plugfest in Paris by Bart (I'm sure that would have raised some
> > > eyebrows as well), but did not get any answer from potential venues.
> > > Then I made the *proposal* that the LibreOffice Conference host the
> > > plugfest in Berlin. So yes, there was a proposal. It was discussed,
> > > it seemed welcome, but of course nothing was finalized (hence the
> > > rub with the conference website and the press article) and we were/
> > > are supposed to have a conference call about it this week, for which
> > > I was supposed to invite the plugfest organization committee and
> > > schedule the call. Now I don't know whether that would still fly, it
> > > seems that we have to wait for IBM to grace us with its stamp of
> > > approval or its collar of shame. As things stand here, I'm still
> > > waiting for this answer; not that we wait for IBM's authorization
> > > for anything, but obviously, we're not going to organize a plugfest
> > > if there were no plans by the OpenDoc Society to have one in the
> > > first place. Again, it's a pity that the same rotten apples block
> > > and question everything that TDF does or does not.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Charles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le 24 juin 2012 à 20:23, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > > >
> > > >> Charles,
> > > >>
> > > >> First, congratulations on your marriage. The wedding photograph
> > > is wonderful.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think the breakdown here has to do with the fact that no
> > > proposal was made to Plugtest organizers and, as far as I can tell,
> > > to the OpenDocument Society. In contrast, the offer from Microsoft
> > > was made to this list. It was discussed, eventually accepted, and
> > > then there was follow-up here, as well as conference calls for
> > > organization, etc. Development of other Plugtests, including the
> > > concurrent one at Orvieto, had similar visibility.
> > > >>
> > > >> That level of communication was missing in this instance. This
> > > happens when such is the case.
> > > >>
> > > >> - Dennis
> > > >>
> > > >> PS: I have not seen anything about the press here. The only
> > > indication that has been reported on this list is the LO 2012
> > > Conference announcement and CFP itself.
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Charles-H. Schulz [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:06
> > > >> To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > >> Cc: Louis Suarez-Potts; Alberto Barrionuevo; Michiel Leenaars;
> > > plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; Arthur Buijs; Sophie
> > > Gautier; Olivier Hallot; Italo Vignoli; Donald Harbison
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > > >>
> > > >> Hello ,
> > > >>
> > > >> I think there must have been a miscommunication from our side and
> > > from the press. The way I can describe it is that the idea of
> > > hosting an ODF Plugfest was discussed a bit on the LibreOffice
> > > marketing list and as our website team had to open up the conference
> > > website for the LibreOffice Conference, they simply copied and
> > > pasted the content of what was discussed on the marketing list and
> > > put it on the beta website. From that point on, the press (the H)
> > > wrote an article based on it. I will see that the mention of an ODF
> > > Plugfest gets deleted, since that seems to be interpreted as a grave
> > > casus belli by some.
> > > >>
> > > >> As for the neutrality... did we organize a plugfest with
> > > Microsoft and at Microsoft HQ in Brussels? Because if now some here
> > > are complaining that it is a shame that TDF hosts one, then you guys
> > > are really losing it by any measurement. I'm appalled that such
> > > comments could be made. Yes, we're supposed to be an united front.
> > > But it seems that some in this committee will not let one good deed
> > > go unpunished. I am frankly becoming sick and tired of this. There's
> > > no neutrality here; there are multiple implementations of ODF, and
> > > I'm sure we agree that it's a good thing, don't we? So the
> > > neutrality argument is weird. It seems to always go one way (TDF
> > > should NOT be allowed to organize such events), and it's always
> > > raised by the same people.
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's my proposal: how about you guys figure the best course of
> > > action in between your bruised egos, your hatred feelings and your
> > > secret agendas and come back to me some time this week?
> > > >> TDF will then devise what to do with the proposal we made.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Charles.
> > > >>
> > > >> Le 24 juin 2012 à 19:40, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > > >>
> > > >>> At the same time, it is undesirable to conflict with conferences
> > > where many of the developers will be attending with respect to their
> > > own products, participating in conference development, etc. It now
> > > looks like this:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2012-10-16/19 Berlin, LibreOffice 2012 Conference
> > > >>> 2012-10-18/19 Santiago de Compostela, Spain, LSWC 12
> > > >>> 2012-11-05/09 Sinsheim, Germany, ApacheCon 2012 Europe (Apache
> > > OpenOffice track in planning)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I assume other conflicts will come to light, even limiting to
> > > those with an open-source focus.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - Dennis
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: Louis Suárez-Potts [mailto:luispo at gmail.com]
> > > >>> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:05
> > > >>> To: Alberto Barrionuevo
> > > >>> Cc: Hanssens Bart; Arthur Buijs; Michiel Leenaars;
> > > robert_weir at us.ibm.com; dennis.hamilton at acm.org; charles-
> > > h.schulz at arsaperta.com; plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > Berlin?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> All,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 2012-06-24, at 08:46 , Alberto Barrionuevo wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Hi all,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> when are you planning to hold it?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Depending on dates, this could be another possibility:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> http://www.libresoftwareworldconference.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Surely it is more neutral than an OOOconf, and there is space
> > > for many parallel events in it. The venue is one of the biggest ones
> > > in Spain, so no problems because rooms. Also, it is near to the
> > > north of Portugal.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> This third edition of the event is organized by our Spanish
> > > association of open source and open standards companies, and usually
> > > we include other events in it. Of course, it would be open to some
> > > of you as speakers in the general conference.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I would strongly suggest we do not link this or any future ODF
> > > plugfest to any OO (or implementation-specific) event, including
> > > AOOi, LibreOffice or whatever.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We have something valuable, in addition to the standard. We have
> > > independence and impartiality. That's why I would agree with
> > > Alberto that an event that is not by any stretch linked to any
> > > specific implementation of ODF be seriously considered. The event is
> > > also as Alberto describes it: Big, important, and in an area that
> > > will, in all likelihood, be shockingly pertinent.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Best,
> > > >>>> //Alberto.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> best
> > > >>> Louis
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> El 23/06/12 12:17, Hanssens Bart escribió:
> > > >>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I was talking to Charles about having a plugfest in Paris or
> > > Portugal, he suggested Berlin might be interesting, which is fine
> > with me,
> > > >>>>> on the condition that it would be like the ODF Plugfest /
> > > OpenOffice conference in Orvieto: that is, one location, two
> > > _separate_ events.
> > > >>>>> (and I do stress "separate" here)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So, the idea was _not_ to send our press releases or issue a
> > > CFP under the LO umbrella...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Now, a conference call was to be scheduled next week, and
> > > Charles kindly offered to provide the teleconf services.
> > > >>>>> However, we haven't received the conf call meeting request yet
> > > (but since Charles is getting married, he might have forgotten to
> > send it)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Bart
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl [plugtest-
> > > organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf Of Arthur Buijs
> > [arthur at artietee.nl]
> > > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:28 AM
> > > >>>>> To: Michiel Leenaars; robert_weir at us.ibm.com; 'Louis Suárez-
> > > Potts'; dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > >>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > Berlin?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Hello,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> as far as I know we are not planning an ODF Plugfest in
> > Berlin.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> Regards/groeten,
> > > >>>>> Arthur Buijs
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original message-----
> > > >>>>> To: 'Louis Suárez-Potts'<luispo at gmail.com>;
> > robert_weir at us.ibm.com;
> > > >>>>> CC: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org;
> > > >>>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton<dennis.hamilton at acm.org>
> > > >>>>> Sent: Fri 22-06-2012 20:27
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest
> > in Berlin?
> > > >>>>>> I assume that there is no visibility because there had been
> > no public
> > > >>>>>> discussion.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The OpenDocumentSociety site and wiki have nothing about a
> > > Plugfest being
> > > >>>>>> developed since the April 2012 Brussels one.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> There has been co-location with an OpenOffice.org conference
> > > in the past but
> > > >>>>>> that was at the request of plugfest planners, not vice versa,
> > > as I recall.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The LibreOffice2012 announcement contains an ODF Plugfest
> > > link, but it is to an
> > > >>>>>> odfplugfest.de domain that was used for the last one in
> > > Berlin. The Call for
> > > >>>>>> papers does indeed include an ODF Plugfest as a
> > topic/theme/track area.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I suppose this is one of those, "say it is so that it will
> > > become so" actions.
> > > >>>>>> (The form I recently heard this disputed was in "saying your
> > > [whatever] is
> > > >>>>>> secure does not make it secure" [;<).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> - Dennis
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>>> [mailto:plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf Of
> > > Louis Suárez-Potts
> > > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:50
> > > >>>>>> To: robert_weir at us.ibm.com
> > > >>>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> > Berlin?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Hm. Bit of a surprise to me, too. We had discussed on the OIC
> > call
> > > >>>>>> last Wednesday week the idea of a time frame and possibly
> > location
> > > >>>>>> (Europe) but that was it; I had suggested it better we stick
> > with
> > > >>>>>> really neutral spaces for the plugfest.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Louis
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On 22 June 2012 13:34,<robert_weir at us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> I'm surprised that I'm reading this in the press when no
> > discussion or
> > > >>>>>>> proposal has been made on this list, but there appears to be
> > > another ODF
> > > >>>>>>> Plugfest in Berlin scheduled for November:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-
> > > Conference-2012-Call-for-Pape
> > > >>>>>> rs-announced-1623270.html
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Or did I miss something?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> -Rob
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Alberto Barrionuevo, Director
> > > >>>> Grupo OPENTIA
> > > >>>> (+34) 918 38 38 58 [t]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> OPENTIA
> > > >>>> Ingeniería Informática en Abierto
> > > >>>> www.opentia.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > >>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > >>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > > >>
> > > >> Charles-H. Schulz
> > > >> Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > >> Ars Aperta
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Charles-H. Schulz
> > > > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > > Ars Aperta
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >
> > > Charles-H. Schulz
> > > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > Ars Aperta
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
>
>
> --
> Charles-H. Schulz
> Associé / Partner,
> Ars Aperta.
>
> _______________________________________________
> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
>
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