[Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?

Mon Jun 25 17:00:15 CEST 2012

Hi,

Good to see that things are coming back to its normal mailing list
behavior.
I hope nobody feels offended that I, as an IBMer, is writing a post to this
mailing list.

Thanks Charles for the information about how the announcement of a possible
ODF Plugfest happened.

Personally, I feel a little bit disappointed that the people who are
involved in the former discussions are not realizing the "ODF Plugfest
community" which had been built here and on <plugtest at opendocsociety.org>
over the last years.
But I also feel that mistakes always happen, esp. when too much digital
media streams are involved. Thus, let us learn from our mistakes and
continue here with a possible next ODF Plugfest.

Charles, do you already have a time estimation for the planned call on
Thursday? I am asking, because I want to attend and if its conflicting this
my calendar, I need to arrange certain stuff to be able to call-in. Thx in
advance.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann

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From:	"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com>
To:	plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
Date:	25.06.2012 15:40
Subject:	Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
Sent by:	plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl

Rob,

It's not a matter of making it more obvious. It's a problem of list
hopping, for the lack of a better word. People who tend to be more or
less on the same lists start discussing one topic on one mailing list,
and end up on another one.

I summarized what has been discussed or how it has happened. It started
with Bart asking me to investigate the possibility of a plugfest in
Paris. My investigations for a local venue didn't turn well. I thus
proposed to have a plugfest in Berlin during the LibreOffice Conference
where we will have an ODF track. It was welcome, and we were about to
schedule a call on Thursday. Then there was this publishing mistake on
the LiboCon website. You seem to have landed at that point.

Anything else?

Charles.

Le lundi 25 juin 2012 à 09:22 -0400, robert_weir at us.ibm.com a écrit :
> This is the plugfest organizers list.  This is where we organize
> plugfests.  If a different list name would make this more obvious, I'm
> open to suggestions.
>
> Since we cannot undo this error, can someone at least outline what was
> proposed and/or agreed upon?  Most of us here are still in the dark
> and hearing this for the first time.
>
> -Rob
>
> plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl wrote on 06/24/2012 03:43:30 PM:
>
> > From: "Charles-H. Schulz" <charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com>
> > To: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org,
> Dennis.hamilton at acm.org,
> > Date: 06/24/2012 03:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > Sent by: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> >
> > Dennis,
> >
> > I re-parsed my emails. Lots of  people who are on this mailing list
> > were included in the first discussion; not all of them were.  I now
> > realize the "first" discussion took place on an OpenForum Europe
> > mailing list (and I really don't know why it did, as it should not
> > take place there) but it should not be a reason to claim no one was
> > in the know. IBM people were on that list (the OFE one), Michiel
> > was, others were. You are not on this OFE mailing list, granted; but
> > for many of us this discussion started several two or three weeks
> > ago. I'm sorry if that seems to fall in your inbox abruptly. This
> > being said, I do reiterate that the comments made by some about the
> > so-called neutrality are unwelcome, uncalled for, and pathetic.
> >
> > Best,
> > Charles.
> >
> >
> > Le 24 juin 2012 à 21:32, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> >
> > > Charles,
> > >
> > > I am only on this Plugtest list.  That is all I see.
> > >
> > > If there is fragmentation of where this happens and whatever
> > discussions there are, that is an unfortunate contribution to the
> > opportunity for misunderstanding and miscommunication that has
> arisen here.
> > >
> > > I have only seen what is discussed on this list, the one for
> > Plugtest organizing.
> > >
> > > PS: I have reduced the CC list on this reply because the list
> > robot is unhappy about excessive numbers of addressees and requires
> > moderation in that case.  If that means CC to folks who are not
> > subscribers to this list will be lost, that is unfortunate.
> > >
> > > - Dennis
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Charles-H. Schulz [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:57
> > > To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > > Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; 'Louis Suarez-Potts';
> > 'Alberto Barrionuevo'; 'Michiel Leenaars'; 'Arthur Buijs'; 'Sophie
> > Gautier'; 'Olivier Hallot'; 'Italo Vignoli'; 'Donald Harbison'
> > > Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > >
> > > Dennis,
> > >
> > > Are you on all the Plugfest lists that I am subscribed? I would
> > not see why you wouldn't.  I specifically was invited to organize a
> > plugfest in Paris by Bart (I'm sure that would have raised some
> > eyebrows as well), but did not get any answer from potential venues.
> > Then I made the *proposal* that the LibreOffice Conference host the
> > plugfest in Berlin. So yes, there was a proposal. It was discussed,
> > it seemed welcome, but of course nothing was finalized (hence the
> > rub with the conference website and the press article) and we were/
> > are supposed to have a conference call about it this week, for which
> > I was supposed to invite the plugfest organization committee and
> > schedule the call. Now I don't know whether that would still fly, it
> > seems that we have to wait for IBM to grace us with its stamp of
> > approval or its collar of shame. As things stand here, I'm still
> > waiting for this answer; not that we wait for IBM's authorization
> > for anything, but obviously, we're not going to organize a plugfest
> > if there were no plans by the OpenDoc Society to have one in the
> > first place. Again, it's a pity that the same rotten apples block
> > and question everything that TDF does or does not.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Charles.
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 24 juin 2012 à 20:23, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Charles,
> > >>
> > >> First, congratulations on your marriage.  The wedding photograph
> > is wonderful.
> > >>
> > >> I think the breakdown here has to do with the fact that no
> > proposal was made to Plugtest organizers and, as far as I can tell,
> > to the OpenDocument Society.  In contrast, the offer from Microsoft
> > was made to this list.  It was discussed, eventually accepted, and
> > then there was follow-up here, as well as conference calls for
> > organization, etc.  Development of other Plugtests, including the
> > concurrent one at Orvieto, had similar visibility.
> > >>
> > >> That level of communication was missing in this instance.  This
> > happens when such is the case.
> > >>
> > >> - Dennis
> > >>
> > >> PS: I have not seen anything about the press here.  The only
> > indication that has been reported on this list is the LO 2012
> > Conference announcement and CFP itself.
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Charles-H. Schulz [mailto:charles-h.schulz at arsaperta.com]
> > >> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:06
> > >> To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > >> Cc: Louis Suarez-Potts; Alberto Barrionuevo; Michiel Leenaars;
> > plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org; Arthur Buijs; Sophie
> > Gautier; Olivier Hallot; Italo Vignoli; Donald Harbison
> > >> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in Berlin?
> > >>
> > >> Hello ,
> > >>
> > >> I think there must have been a miscommunication from our side and
> > from the press. The way I can describe it is that the idea of
> > hosting an ODF Plugfest was discussed a bit on the LibreOffice
> > marketing list and as our website team had to open up the conference
> > website for the LibreOffice Conference, they simply copied and
> > pasted the content of what was discussed on the marketing list and
> > put it on the beta website. From that point on, the press (the H)
> > wrote an article based on it. I will see that the mention of an ODF
> > Plugfest gets deleted, since that seems to be interpreted as a grave
> > casus belli by some.
> > >>
> > >> As for the neutrality... did we organize a plugfest with
> > Microsoft and at Microsoft HQ in Brussels? Because if now some here
> > are complaining that it is a shame that TDF hosts one, then you guys
> > are really losing it by any measurement. I'm appalled that such
> > comments could be made. Yes, we're supposed to be an united front.
> > But it seems that some in this committee will not let one good deed
> > go unpunished. I am frankly becoming sick and tired of this. There's
> > no neutrality here; there are multiple implementations of ODF, and
> > I'm sure we agree that it's a good thing, don't we? So the
> > neutrality argument is weird. It seems to always go one way (TDF
> > should NOT be allowed to organize such events), and it's always
> > raised by the same people.
> > >>
> > >> Here's my proposal: how about you guys figure the best course of
> > action in between your bruised egos, your hatred feelings and your
> > secret agendas and come back to me some time this week?
> > >> TDF will then devise what to do with the proposal we made.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Charles.
> > >>
> > >> Le 24 juin 2012 à 19:40, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> > >>
> > >>> At the same time, it is undesirable to conflict with conferences
> > where many of the developers will be attending with respect to their
> > own products, participating in conference development, etc.  It now
> > looks like this:
> > >>>
> > >>> 2012-10-16/19 Berlin, LibreOffice 2012 Conference
> > >>> 2012-10-18/19 Santiago de Compostela, Spain, LSWC 12
> > >>> 2012-11-05/09 Sinsheim, Germany, ApacheCon 2012 Europe (Apache
> > OpenOffice track in planning)
> > >>>
> > >>> I assume other conflicts will come to light, even limiting to
> > those with an open-source focus.
> > >>>
> > >>> - Dennis
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Louis Suárez-Potts [mailto:luispo at gmail.com]
> > >>> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:05
> > >>> To: Alberto Barrionuevo
> > >>> Cc: Hanssens Bart; Arthur Buijs; Michiel Leenaars;
> > robert_weir at us.ibm.com; dennis.hamilton at acm.org; charles-
> > h.schulz at arsaperta.com; plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > >>>
> > >>> All,
> > >>>
> > >>> On 2012-06-24, at 08:46 , Alberto Barrionuevo wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> when are you planning to hold it?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Depending on dates, this could be another possibility:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.libresoftwareworldconference.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Surely it is more neutral than an OOOconf, and there is space
> > for many parallel events in it. The venue is one of the biggest ones
> > in Spain, so no problems because rooms. Also, it is near to the
> > north of Portugal.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This third edition of the event is organized by our Spanish
> > association of open source and open standards companies, and usually
> > we include other events in it. Of course, it would be open to some
> > of you as speakers in the general conference.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I would strongly suggest we do not link this or any future ODF
> > plugfest to any OO (or implementation-specific) event, including
> > AOOi, LibreOffice or whatever.
> > >>>
> > >>> We have something valuable, in addition to the standard. We have
> > independence and impartiality.  That's why I would agree with
> > Alberto that an event that is not by any stretch linked to any
> > specific implementation of ODF be seriously considered. The event is
> > also as Alberto describes it: Big, important, and in an area that
> > will, in all likelihood, be shockingly pertinent.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> //Alberto.
> > >>>
> > >>> best
> > >>> Louis
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> El 23/06/12 12:17, Hanssens Bart escribió:
> > >>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was talking to Charles about having a plugfest in Paris or
> > Portugal, he suggested Berlin might be interesting, which is fine
> with me,
> > >>>>> on the condition that it would be like the ODF Plugfest /
> > OpenOffice conference in Orvieto: that is, one location, two
> > _separate_ events.
> > >>>>> (and I do stress "separate" here)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, the idea was _not_ to send our press releases or issue a
> > CFP under the LO umbrella...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Now, a conference call was to be scheduled next week, and
> > Charles kindly offered to provide the teleconf services.
> > >>>>> However, we haven't received the conf call meeting request yet
> > (but since Charles is getting married, he might have forgotten to
> send it)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Bart
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > >>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl [plugtest-
> > organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf Of Arthur Buijs
> [arthur at artietee.nl]
> > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:28 AM
> > >>>>> To: Michiel Leenaars; robert_weir at us.ibm.com; 'Louis Suárez-
> > Potts'; dennis.hamilton at acm.org
> > >>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hello,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> as far as I know we are not planning an ODF Plugfest in
> Berlin.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Regards/groeten,
> > >>>>> Arthur Buijs
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original message-----
> > >>>>> To:     'Louis Suárez-Potts'<luispo at gmail.com>;
> robert_weir at us.ibm.com;
> > >>>>> CC:     plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org;
> > >>>>> From:   Dennis E. Hamilton<dennis.hamilton at acm.org>
> > >>>>> Sent:   Fri 22-06-2012 20:27
> > >>>>> Subject:        Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest
> in Berlin?
> > >>>>>> I assume that there is no visibility because there had been
> no public
> > >>>>>> discussion.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The OpenDocumentSociety site and wiki have nothing about a
> > Plugfest being
> > >>>>>> developed since the April 2012 Brussels one.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> There has been co-location with an OpenOffice.org conference
> > in the past but
> > >>>>>> that was at the request of plugfest planners, not vice versa,
> > as I recall.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The LibreOffice2012 announcement contains an ODF Plugfest
> > link, but it is to an
> > >>>>>> odfplugfest.de domain that was used for the last one in
> > Berlin.  The Call for
> > >>>>>> papers does indeed include an ODF Plugfest as a
> topic/theme/track area.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I suppose this is one of those, "say it is so that it will
> > become so" actions.
> > >>>>>> (The form I recently heard this disputed was in "saying your
> > [whatever] is
> > >>>>>> secure does not make it secure" [;<).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> - Dennis
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>> From: plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>>> [mailto:plugtest-organisers-bounces at nlnet.nl] On Behalf Of
> > Louis Suárez-Potts
> > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:50
> > >>>>>> To: robert_weir at us.ibm.com
> > >>>>>> Cc: plugtest-organisers at opendocsociety.org
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Plugtest-org] Evidently another Plugfest in
> Berlin?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hm. Bit of a surprise to me, too. We had discussed on the OIC
> call
> > >>>>>> last Wednesday week the idea of a time frame and possibly
> location
> > >>>>>> (Europe) but that was it; I had suggested it better we stick
> with
> > >>>>>> really neutral spaces for the plugfest.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Louis
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 22 June 2012 13:34,<robert_weir at us.ibm.com>  wrote:
> > >>>>>>> I'm surprised that I'm reading this in the press when no
> discussion or
> > >>>>>>> proposal has been made on this list, but there appears to be
> > another ODF
> > >>>>>>> Plugfest in Berlin scheduled for November:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-
> > Conference-2012-Call-for-Pape
> > >>>>>> rs-announced-1623270.html
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Or did I miss something?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -Rob
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>>>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>>>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Alberto Barrionuevo, Director
> > >>>> Grupo OPENTIA
> > >>>> (+34) 918 38 38 58 [t]
> > >>>>
> > >>>>        OPENTIA
> > >>>> Ingeniería Informática en Abierto
> > >>>>     www.opentia.com
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > >>> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > >>> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> > >>
> > >> Charles-H. Schulz
> > >> Associé / Founding Partner,
> > >> Ars Aperta
> > >>
> > >
> > > Charles-H. Schulz
> > > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > > Ars Aperta
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> >
> > Charles-H. Schulz
> > Associé / Founding Partner,
> > Ars Aperta
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > plugtest-organisers mailing list
> > plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> > https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers
> >
> _______________________________________________
> plugtest-organisers mailing list
> plugtest-organisers at nlnet.nl
> https://open.nlnet.nl/mailman/listinfo/plugtest-organisers

--
Charles-H. Schulz
Associé / Partner,
Ars Aperta.

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