[ODFPlugtest] writing implementation specific defaults

[Wouter van Vugt]

I think you should focus a little more on what an average user expects
to see happening. 

My guess is that when my mother, father or sister would place a picture
somewhere, her auntie in New York should see that picture exactly there.
Users derives value out of the positioning. Perhaps because they have
composed a bunch of images to seamlessly overlap, whatever. The simple
fact is that each and every implementation needs to know the exact
details of what was used when the document was authored. There is only
one way:

If a value has no default, or the value differs from the default,
persist it. 

Common peeps, how hard is this? I am a little shocked that we are
starting to discuss edge cases over the default case. Or new
super-awesome layout ideas over normal usage.

If you want your printer to adapt, you specify a different paper size
when printing, and the app adapts it as you wish. If you have impaired
sight, you open the document in your speech enabled app, and it'll
probably start speaking without all too much hassle. The document
however still indicates at load time that it was on paper size X. My
point is not that a document must display the same on A4 as on US
Letter. My point is that each implementer must be given a chance to
ensure that it opens the document the way the author intended it. And
that is just only possible if we follow the cardinal rule of:

If a value has no default, or the value differs from the default,
persist it.

If your application wants to default to US Letter on documents created
as A4, whatever. Please do so. You might have a winning feature. It is
totally besides the point.

By the way. I think there will be no average author in the world that
will be able to 'freeze' the layout. Everyone is already expecting it to
be frozen. Why else is it that we were looking at differences in page
count? If we were not hoping for them to be the same! 

Does anyone disagree with the fact that common users will expect to see
an image in location X because that's where they placed it? And that
they do not expect to have to 'freeze' layout first?

Can we please move on? 

Wouter van Vugt

Code Counsel
Sharing Knowledge with Passion
wouter at code-counsel.net

-----Original Message-----
From: plugtest-bounces at opendocsociety.org
[mailto:plugtest-bounces at opendocsociety.org] On Behalf Of Andreas J.
Guelzow
Sent: donderdag 18 juni 2009 19:02
To: plugtest at opendocsociety.org
Subject: Re: [ODFPlugtest] writing implementation specific defaults

On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 13:03 +0200, Wouter van Vugt wrote:
> I don't really care about samples. The TC can figure that out.
> 
> The point is more that implementers should *not* do something. And
that
> is that they should not say 'hey, this document is in A4, that's our
app
> default, so let's not store that information in the document itself'.
As
> long as we all do not say that, documents should not be different when
> opened here or there or anywhere. Since all the vital layout
information
> can either be found in the spec, or in the document. Together they
> should cover 100%.

But for some types of documents the layout probably should change, as
long as the content doesn't. If a German colleague writes a document on
what is likely A4 paper then when I print it I want it do adjust itself.
There is no way that the document can look the same on letter paper as
on A4. And when I read it on screen I may want it in some third layout.

Of course, the creator should  have the choice to freeze the format, bu
that is up to the application s/he uses to create the document. It
should give him/her the choice of using the default or setting a
specific size. So even in an A4 environment there should be a page zize
of default and one of A4 and they should behave differently. (The former
not being written to teh file, while the latter is.)


> The reason that we have this discussion is that this is what
> implementers are currently not doing. Currently, the information is
not
> persisted, so we all have different *application* defaults. Hence,
> rendering quirks occur in normal views.
> 
> Does that clarify it to a degree that we can all agree this is the way
> to move forward?
> Sensible defaults --> define in spec
> Or --> always store in document
> 
> That's it, plain, simple, I like it!

I don't.

> 
> Then there is the second story of wanting to *view* a document in
other
> apps like on your telephone. In which case the document might need a
> change of layout. However, that is an application feature. We cannot
> expect the ODF spec to cover how dynamic layout should occur. If I
place
> an image 20 centimeters from the left border, that was my intention
and
> I very much hope that someone in China sees it in that exact location
> too. Except when they open a similar view to the MS Office 2k7 Full
> Screen Reading layout. In that case the user expresses the intent of
> changing layout for improved readability, and hence layout quirks are
> acceptable. 

And by the same token I should have the choice of placing the image
somewhere on the page and I don't care where. If you don't like what
your application is allowing you to do, use a different one. The
standard gives applications the freedom to include thaose defaults or
not.

Andreas
> 
-- 
Andreas J. Guelzow <aguelzow at pyrshep.ca>

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