[ODFPlugtest] writing implementation specific defaults

[Wouter van Vugt]

I was told earlier this week that ODF defines around 1000 default
values. Take your pick. 

By the way. I do not intend to discuss _which_ values should have a
default. TCs can do that. I intend to indicate to the TC that they
should do:
 - look at sensible defaults, and when found, define them. If none are
found, fine with me.
 - Make it mandatory for applications to write out any value that is
different from the ODF default

Not that hard to understand without samples I would suspect. 

> IMHO - the document should be self-sustaining, containing enough
> information to render it in the way intended.

In the way I intended? Like when I intended that image to appear 20
centimeters from the left border? Of course it is true that those with
impaired sight have little use for that image. Doesn't matter if it is
20 centimeters, or 30. That's probably why we have ALT attributes too,
right? I do not see how that fits in to the picture. A default is never
advice. Because of your attitude we have rendering issues across the
board. Especially in the most common situation of people looking at the
document and expect to see what I intended for them to see. Apart from a
special viewing pane that changes layout I want my document to appear as
is. 

Does anyone else but Mr Wildeboer have an opinion? 

Oh yeah, I quote Roman:
***you will be surprised how many customers actually come back and
report this as critical issues (that we have to think about fixing
somehow). Not having default values or having them application specific
is an open invitation for this sort of scenarios.***

I am one of those customers. 

Wouter van Vugt

Code Counsel
Sharing Knowledge with Passion
wouter at code-counsel.net


-----Original Message-----
From: plugtest-bounces at opendocsociety.org
[mailto:plugtest-bounces at opendocsociety.org] On Behalf Of Jan H
Wildeboer
Sent: donderdag 18 juni 2009 14:22
To: ODF Plugfest mailinglist
Subject: Re: [ODFPlugtest] writing implementation specific defaults

Wouter van Vugt wrote:
> I don't really care about samples. The TC can figure that out.

Nope. You raised an argument and in order to understand it I ask for
some concrete examples. Without some concrete examples, this turns to a
flamewar without result - which noone wants.

If you want the TC to do something they don't do ATM, you better give
good reasons based on real-world problems.

> Sensible defaults --> define in spec
> Or --> always store in document

My problem is that I do not see what a sensible default could be and I
do suspect that the definition of where a default makes sense will lead
to long and winding discussions that only help a fraction of the end
users.

IMHO - the document should be self-sustaining, containing enough
information to render it in the way intended.

> Then there is the second story of wanting to *view* a document in
other
> apps like on your telephone. In which case the document might need a
> change of layout. However, that is an application feature. We cannot
> expect the ODF spec to cover how dynamic layout should occur. If I
place
> an image 20 centimeters from the left border, that was my intention
and
> I very much hope that someone in China sees it in that exact location
> too. Except when they open a similar view to the MS Office 2k7 Full
> Screen Reading layout. In that case the user expresses the intent of
> changing layout for improved readability, and hence layout quirks are
> acceptable. 

See - such examples as "place picture 20 cm from page border" are
document-centric definitions, used for rendering purposes when the media
can honour it. If I am blind and read stuff with braille equipment, it
makes no sense at all.

So I would always see defaults as *advice* but not as mandatory. It
really depends on the context your application is in. And this is
definitely always application specific. The storage format that ODF is
is simply not the best place to handle the usage of the content.

Jan

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